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Chapter 9

THE NEW, BUT NOT THE INNOVATION

New and not Novel

Old but not Aged

Christ the Citadel

News 412

The Phyllis Schlafly Report , February 2009
Ryan Lizza, Senior Editor of The New Republic

Questions of Obama's mentors and mentality
viewed in biblical terms

Part I

First, in this fascinating field of biblical truth, where are exposed many things concerning the eternal and changeless ways of God, the Almighty, the self-revealing, the precise (Matthew 5:17ff.), the announcer to man of His thoughts (Amos 4), and these in advance in the pivots of history (Amos 3:7), the declarer of the Saviour (Barbs ... 17, TMR Ch. 3, SMR Ch. 9), there is the immutability of this Being who created our time which passes.

This quality of the Deity has often been considered here^*1. It continues in all His works. His ways are everlasting and do not change (Malachi 3:6, Habakkuk 3:6, Psalm 102, Hebrews 1, I Peter 1:23-25, Romans 1:17ff., Galatians 1:6ff., with Galatians 3 and 5).

His Gospel does not change; His promises do not self-destruct but are all fulfilled (Matthew 5:17ff.), His faithfulness to His word is constant (Psalm 138:2), nor is He deceived nor lax (Nahum 1:1ff.), though great is His mercy and keen His truth, which is pronounced that it may abide, and in the Bible, it comes like an express train, delivering word to parallel action at each station, till the whole counsel of God, beautiful in splendid harmony, excellent in consistent development of detail, authoritative to history which must and does follow it (cf. Isaiah 44-46), exhibits the fact. Which fact ?

This that He is alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of all creation, for whom space and time (Romans 8:37ff.) are mere creations, dependent on Him, as a book on its author, places for appeal, for opportunity, for liberty and hence for sin as for sanctity, and for salvation, where the trip from the former to the latter may be made: for all have sinned, every mortal soul on this earth; and His sacrifice is sufficient for all (I John 2), though few there be who come to receive it.

What then is new but not innovation in this field ? It is the immutability BECAUSE of the profundity and the aseity of God, the irrelevance of evolution both to Himself and His products, which are
word wrought, command taught, esprit-enabled in the case of man, capable as he is both of self-deception and never deceiving God. It is the inanity because of the delusion of man, asinine without deity, adrift without a driver for his elegantly small and magnificently moulded being, sunning himself in the cancer-producing sun because of the sun-roof which exposes to the elements of this world because he has not gained, for he WILL not accept, the elements of truth.

What then ? Did the artistry of bird beauties originate from zero, turning its lonely non-self to account, as if necessity impelled what was not there to do that for which it had no capability ? Or was it thus with the incremental designs which are fashioned and then expressed in lavish loveliness so charming, patterns so exquisite, in modes so titivating to aesthetic appreciation, paralleled by such exquisitely engineered freedom for flight with dynamics so amazing in their aeronautic programmatics that the ensemble astonishes the mind!

All this, it is as if confronted by the painting of some great artist, yet found to live and emote,  while its totality with its inbuilt navigational aids involving it seems to connive with anything from astral positioning to magnetic influence leads to more awe. Such things this earth sees not at all, not for one particle of such information; but it is seen which such things are well understood, in the creation from the One competent, whom to dismiss is to despise logic and to eat straw for food.

It is to more amazement that it leads,  this concerto of intellectual brilliance, aesthetic sensitivity, engineering savvy and mathematical scintillation, spoken literally into existence in every successive avine generation, yet sundered  with as much ado as it meets  the necessities of logic concerning its Creator. Why ? It is that in the errant and erratic mind of masochistic man, there is that glint of yes, spiritual determination to ruin the planet rather than admit God, rather than serve Him, than love his neighbour as himself and quit the wars of pride, or cease the religions which merely satisfy appearance, seduce the psyche and end in a grandeur of pan-alogistics(cf. SMR Ch. 10,  and *1 below) that leaves man the greatest ass since donkeys were made. It is not just any one of them.

The fiesta of religions become with much more,  the parade of error. It is the rejection of the very LOGOS who created the logic that pervades man's own advent in each generation, which inflames a mind already incendiary.  demands of his psyche what he is increasingly and predictedly unwilling to mirror (cf. II Timothy 4, Romans 1:17ff.), in the anti-spiritual syndrome mixed with that religious innovation make-weight which afflicts the earth,

Antithesis and antilogy mix^*2 as in a milk shake for the hungry, but since it is poisoned, it does not quench the thirst that still drives man in restless rush to the precipice of desolation, because of self-deceit and ingratitude. At work is the very flamboyance-of-faithlessness that captivates still further the cultural immaturity that delights in roving without arriving, denigrating without standards by which to do it, and denying doom with the very passion that leads to it.

It is time to return to the logical necessity with spiritual liberty which replaces nescience, to the consistency which excludes antinomy, to the acuity which dismisses antilogy.

How is this done ? It is simply by returning to the Eternal Logos, who was with God and was God, who is the very living Word of God, who was with Him in the beginning and who will judge in the end, who is so much more but not at all less than the governing authenticity of reason, being the perfect expression of God. Alone verified in expression in the Bible, or even verifiable in all that speaks in God's name, and lord over all the misnomers of misalliance which ignore causation and creation alike (cf. The gods of naturalism have no go!), it is He who says what is the schema, the salvation and before it, the diagnosis by God, of mankind.

If the earth is a parody of the sinfulness of man, in its striving that is sentence on sin, then man is a parody of the creation state by divinity which first was his abode. Inwardly, he often yearns for the peace which truth loves, for the love which hatred mourns, for the brotherhood which misalignment smashes; outwardly he often engages in sexual perversion as a substitute for spiritual kindness, in harassment instead of self-discipline and in cruelty instead of due government, as endless parades of the parodies of politics, impose their diseased wills and flaunted follies on their nations, and facile international associations try to solve the very problems their blighted ignorance produces.

But GOD, He does not change, nor do His moral laws, nor does His place as the worship object of man, in whose hand he lies, in whose grace he must move. Otherwise, for the lie of self-sufficiency, man is devotedly finding the end of all lies, which never lies at rest, but in ruins. Immutable is the beauty that inhabits the earth, just as the comedy of asininity, and the enticement of wisdom, whether in some instructive creations (like the sloth for example, or on the other horizon, the ant) or in his own dealings, continue till the curtain falls on the dramas, petty or penultimate, that move to the due end.

But let us see more of the beautiful immutability of God, both in creation and in judgment; and especially, at first in mercy. There is no innovation here, for man sins, God judges and only mercy can intervene, prompted by love, but without confusion of truth, diffusion of righteousness or entrapment by histrionics, be they political, those of 'social justice' or any other pre-empting of the ways of God by the will of man. Where man plays God, the fit is not neat; and when man invents some morals and discards others, without sin being overthrown, the mismanagement of selective substitutes for overall judgment become horror stories of the spiritual ghettoes.

There man is aflame with desire, ignorant of realities, paralysed by presumption, rushing in streams of thought that leave little more than self-importance and sin as the guidance for goals. Not the Creator, he yet creates anything from sexual perversion, to spiritual dictation as a flux for endless change, in a kind of sedate terrorism, which excludes truth while affirming it, excludes the reality of God while acting on it as a basis, and brands people for non-conformity while deviating from the design by which they are made. Their conformity ? it is to the abased thought which changes many times in a century, unreasonable, inconsistent, substitute for reason, without foundation, using creation as a pivot for pride, and misusing it as a sop for self-elevation. The devil has done just the same, and without doubt, as Christ put it, the prince of this world is coming, and he has NOTHING IN ME!

As He said, so it is; and now it is becoming more and more an internationally compulsive mode for man, to put himself in His place as Satan suggested in the report of Genesis 3. It is always the same: when you revolt against what is sound and demonstrable and true, against the very source of your existence and power, you are not freed, but merely compelled in the long run by the sinister schemas of the liberators, whose aims and follies mix like an impenetrable tangle.

Hence the problems of this world as is increasingly obvious, CANNOT be resolved by reason, not because it is inept, but because it is being made irrelevant, and the LOGOS who made the universe, is given notice, as He was at Calvary, just the same the spirit back of it. Hence more and more, ways to reduce freedom of speech and to induce conformity to political dogmas, mere effluents of desire, become mandatory, and man moves towards the predicted horror of international rule by false prophets, the garnishing of the 'beast' whose heart is as tender as the name suggests.

Change! that is the name of the work. In one of the courses attended, by report, by Obama^*3 when he was much younger, there was even a provision that charm and modes should be used in order to provide a MORAL APPEARANCE, without which nothing could be gained. Deception was the tool, alien objectives were the intent. Truth however was not in the ascendant; and what sells truth is only lie. Courses of this kind are therefore an antidote to truth. You cannot however trifle with truth for any purpose, without offence to God, since Christ is THE TRUTH (John 14:6). God is NEVER a means; and in the end, this becomes even more apparent (cf. Matthew 7:21ff.).

Declarations in The Phyllis Schlafly Report attest that Obama attended a course in the vein of Saul D. Alinksky, in the Industrial Areas Foundation, and it specifies much of what was in that philosophic approach. Whether Obama has imbibed, transformed, or been influenced by the specious deviousness of the methodology exposed in the Report (February 2009), the Lord knows. More is given in the account noted in *3 above. However, that the moral nature of such philosophies is as delinquent as was Marxism, which used terms like 'democracy' as cover for totalitarian brutality, appears from the citations on the use of morals. These are allowed to be used in that arena, as a rationalisation for what is desired; and manipulation appears as a means of attaining what is not specified to those ON whom (rather than with whom) the agent for the program is advised to work.

Thus in this radical deviousness, the agent to practise such an agenda, is to be "reaching for the very highest level for which man can reach - to create, to be a 'great creator,' to play God". The approach given is in terms of one who "detests dogma, defies any finite defintiion of morality". Morality ? The agent is to proceed with a "moral rationalization after the right end has been achieved." In other words, it appears that 'morals' are subversively innovative creations, lacking in objectivity, inserting speciously to gain approval, while the actualities move on other themes, for other reasons. Anything more like the devil it is hard to imagine, and indeed, we read in this same Report, that Alinksy cited Lucifer as executing radicalism, right at the first, finding in him,  one "who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at last won his own kingdom." 

Such alliances with aliens from the truth, whose supposed 'kingdom' is not even safe, the devil in fact being one thrown out of heaven (since Alinsky evidently wishes to invade the scripture with his ideas, we had better keep to it in refuting their relevance) as is seen in Revelation 12, and on the ground, out of effective power as noted in Luke 10:17ff., what are they ? They are mere temporary struts for the kingdom of lie (John 8:44ff.). This, it is a delusive playing God indeed, the antonym of actuality. There,  mere appearance replaces reality, where ironies of impotence are paralleled by expressions of bombast, where nothing works in justice, or order, or truth, or equity, or sustainable argument, but mere negativity proceeds, while worse follies are wrought than those they sought to replace. Unprincipled, double-tongued, mutant mutables, irreverent (by design), these things worship only themselves and the power they can grab, being parasitic on truth, and a fallacy that walks.

Such are these courses of teaching, of thought.

Communism did just such things; so did Nazism, with its specious national glorification leading only to false glory, dim-wittedness and persecution of mutably conceived foes, now brought out like dirty washing, for deletion. Mao and Stalin alike were full of praises through phrases of nothing that could even have logical force, far less historical implementation^*4.

Papacy has done the same, with worship of bread a feature, despite the fact that GOD ONLY is to be worshipped (John 4:22-24, Matthew 4:10), and bread is not God, just as the bronze serpent signifying the saving power of God in crushing sin was a useful device, but forbidden for worship (Numbers 21:6 cf. II Kings 18:4)^*5.

To make an image of ANY kind for worship is of course direly forbidden. "You shall not make anything to be with Me," the Lord said, gods of silver or god being specific (Exodus 20:23). No likeness of any part of creation is permitted for worship  (Exodus 20:1ff.), for God as He told the woman at Samaria, is Spirit and to worship Him you must do it in spirit. Christ did not want us to try to apply grease to the hinges, when Christ said He was a door, nor to seek soil for His use because He said He was a vine, nor to take the Last Supper as suicide, because He broke bread and called it His body. For that matter, He did not want the disciples to be imagined to be body parts, that had tangible aspects as they sat at the table. They were men.

In fact, the bread was was not His body, but imaged it as did the other illustrations, He being true man (Hebrews 2), for He still had it intact, even after He broke the bread; and thus any such suggestion that it was His actual body, by some magic or oddity, would be a farce from the first. Broken bodies do not proceed in peace, as He did.

Yet for that illicit confusion's very masterpiece, many have been murdered; for they would not cease to be spiritual in worship of Jesus the Christ, or have Him break His own body, this being left to others, to the Cross, which is the central affirmation (Galatians 6:14) and not the Last Supper, a prelude to the place of the uttermost of love and the turning point of history.

Here then we find a line of radicalism in politics, religion and sociology, and there is much in common in the mode of working. People who abuse logic, re-define terms, have CHANGE (like the mass which was brought in after centuries, or the massacre, which Communism brought in instead of free land, or the mass slaughter  of Jews, which Hitler conceived as fit for action after receiving power) not from words, but from what they signify. The realities and the words are made to differ, to diverge, and what is stated, by whomever, becomes a false lead to what they are about, for hich they change the terms and their referents.

Thus they move from God Himself though they be but creatures, and take liberties with the sublime, something of which as it comes near to things of Christ, we must warn, even if they move by some indirection (cf. I Timothy 4:1-6^*6). Such double-tongues or such double-talk as here appears, these are achieving, to be sure, more and more notoriety as the century progresses to its soon to be expected demise for the devices of the devil (Answers to Questions Ch. 5). Just when they think they have it made, we read in I Thessalonians 5, they will find 'sudden destruction'. Hitler found it, Mao provided it, the Inquisition showed a bent for it; but these things are small compared with what is coming to this world (cf. Isaiah 2, 24, Matthew 25, II Thessalonians 2).

Why ? It is because man is mutable in power, as God made him free, but not beautiful in its use, since sin makes him bound; and refusing repentance, he simply changes the rules, invents his morals, becomes self-adjudicating and finding himself marvellous, seeks to fashion all men after his own deluded image.

As to God, however, His ways do not change, and are from everlasting. Let us ponder some of them. It is time to depart from innovative oddments, charismatic substitutes for spirituality, which end without charisma. It is time to return to the immutable Lord in the beauty of His holiness on the path of repentance and realism, not being directed by what moves man, but by the God who moves hearts and imparts eternal life, not by appearance, but in reality, where "mercy and truth have met together," where "righteousness and peace have kissed." This, it is found only in God who made us, our Standard, source of our spirits, who has declared His thought to man (Psalm 85, Amos 4).

WHAT IS EVER READY 

His Care, Concern, Solicitude, Truth, Mercy in terms of it

Lamentations 3:33

God does not willingly afflict the children of men, for His mercies are new every morning. Even if a city be destroyed, yet this is not the end. Jerusalem was not immune because it had a work to do; for it misused the commands of Him who sent it on mission, invented its own morals, decided on its own destiny, provoked God but an increasing use of the mode of arrogant self-centredness, and did precisely what so many of our current movements are doing. On the contrary, its lack of immunity proceeded from its growing faithlessness until the aim, that they should show the truth to the world, meant rather that God should remove them from APPEARING to be accepted by Him. This, it appeared  FOR THE SAKE of the truth which they thus demeaned.

It is imperative that the truth be known, and the churches, so-called only, some of them, or governments that ceaselessly meddle with their own navel's ideas, so to speak, only ask for judgments now. Unfortunately,  the USA in particular is now facing the results of spiritually backward years, not least in the financial area. To a vast extent financially for all the brash talk, there draw s all too near, the approach of condemnation in the end. Let us hope that revival in Christ's name, not double-talk, and self-interest, will begin to place that nation back where higher and absolute ideals once placed it, even in Christ to a considerable extent. And that ? not some new  man-made delusion, but the One who died as Calvary and bodily rose from the dead!

It is not for nothing that the vast power of the USA after World War II, has been so lost that what was once, not too long ago, the world's largest creditor nation now seeks a place as the one most in debt.

It is not for nothing that with false churches, false political values IN ACTUAL OPERATION in many power bases in the country, failure to be provident, to use taxes or some other method to PAY for what they have been using, the USA has become almost in part, the resident of a pawn shop, with China now actually asking something of it. That ? it is now asked from the Chinese associates, that they use WELL the trillion loaned to them from that totalitarian country. Borrowers always tend to be servants to lenders, whose withdrawal or non-renewal of funds can cut off a life-style which comes to be prized. Hence they have in principle a certain power. It is not the philosophies of this world that can resist it, though it is precisely these that led to its existence and application! Carelessness with mammon can well lead to a leash from it.

What IS the use of gaining the whole world, only to lose yourself or your nation in debt and manipulability by agents of CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE, some of whom merely use morals for deceit, and disaster as opportunity for manipulation. As to that, it is a fact that Obama, whatever may or may not be his principles and purpose, might well have failed to become President IF the financial crisis, result of years of mismanagement in no small part, had not erupted at a crucial phase near the end of the electioneering. One thing leads to another, when you are slipping. Whether this be the nature of the case, time will assuredly show more and more.

The ways of God, they do not change. The mercy of God, it involves first repentance.

God does not willingly afflict the children of men; but when they ceaselessly ask for it (as in Amos 4), what then ? If you airmail a request for an answer for an invitation every week, is it really so surprising that one day you receive the answer ? If God is mocked continually, is it so strange that one day, He responds!

Yet God is not disposed, inclined, attracted to afflicting the children of man; and in fact as you read Jeremiah 31, you see the vast depths of desire for His people (Jeremiah 31:18ff., cf. 8:21ff.). You see the vast readiness also in Psalm 145:17ff., for God to attend to the sincere, full-hearted cry of His people.

              He also will hear their cry and save them."

Isaiah 40

In parallel, but at the national level at first, in Isaiah 40 you see the Lord's COMFORT, COMFORT MY PEOPLE! He is aware of their sufferings, and in fact has shared in them (Isaiah 63:7-14 with Ezekiel 20; indeed, "He bore them and He carried them along." "In all their affliction, He was afflicted," Isaiah 63:9.

In Isaiah 40, we see the ultimate provision of someone to PREPARE for the coming of the incarnate Son of God, someone to cry to the world, to prepare it for the hearing, and the tenderness of the One to take the lambs in His arms. We also see the empathy of Him who asks this question, or indeed this series of questions:

                           He brings the princes to nothing..."

Later in this same Chapter we see more questions, until indeed they mount up to 10  of them!

                           They shall walk and not faint."

Cumulatively, these questions speak; by asking they answer; the rhetorical becomes the moral and the moral the merciful.

As this file is becoming rather long, we shall separate the text, with the next Chapter completing the message, namely Chapter 10.

NOTES

*1

That God is immutable is indisputable, both in logic and in scripture.

If God had to take counsel in time, or to be swayed, moved, motivated by it, then instead of this being His creation, the time comes and you wait structure for our chronologies, He would be an inhabitant of its domain. The two models are incompatible, the latter answering no questions, and having a hinterland without cause, so that truth would be unknowable; such as any attempt at making such an hypothesis to be true. Truth would be irrelevant to it, just as it would be, in its turn, to truth.

On the contrary, as shown in

SMR,

TMR,  

LIGHT DWELLS WITH THE LORD'S CHRIST

WHO ANSWERS RIDDLES

AND WHERE HE IS, DARKNESS DEPARTS,

DEITY AND DESIGN, DESIGNATION AND DESTINY

REASON, REVELATION and the REDEEMER

The gods of naturalism have no go!

the place of the self-revealing, uniquely attested, verifiably speaking God of the Bible answers all relevant questions, and exceeds all expectations of resolving power.

See for example, on immutability and allied points, the following.

1496,

Sparkling Life ... Ch. 4,

Tender Times ... Ch.     8 ; 

Three Anzas, One Answer Ch.    3; 

Acme, Alpha and Omega: Jesus Christ Chs.   8,  9,  11,

Marvels of Predestination and the Ways of Will Chs. 1 ,    3,

Of the Earth, Earthy, or Celestial in Christ Ch.  14, esp.  *1,

Worn-out World and Coming King Chs.   1,  2,  3,

Man in Retrospect ... Chs.     7  8

Repent or Perish Ch.    7

*2

See Deity or Design ... Section 8.

*3

On Obama's vitamiser mix of ideas, ideals, associates, see:

News 407, with The Uncomprehending Darkness and the Self-Revealing Light Ch. 7.

Concerning sifted detail from DISCOVERINGTHENETWORKS.ORG, A Guide to the Political Left, from Ryan Lizza, Senior Editor of The New Republic, relative to the considerable detail on the various works and involvements of Obama over time, from a younger age, including personal dialogue, see

http://www/discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/bobamasunlikelypoliticaledu.html

Obama's appears to be both pragmatic in the extreme, perhaps having swallowed for operational purposes, a certain dictum (and ANY purposes that lead to action fail delete the nature of the commitment morally, for ENDS do NOT justify MEANS, in truth's book); and he seems at least more word-oriented than Alinksy, declaring in the above report, "It's true that the nation of self-interest was critical. But Alinksy understated the degree to which people's hopes and dreams and their ideals and their values were just as important in organizing as people's self-interest." This appears as a conversational item here presented by Lizza.

What however is the 'certain dictum' noted above ? It is this, as reported by Lizza of the manual used by one, Galluzzo, closely linked in approach to that of Alinsky. As to the manual, we find this: "We are not virtuous by not wanting power," it says.  "We are really cowards for not wanting power," because "power is good" and "powerlessness is evil."

This, we read, is from a manual very similar to that used in the training of Obama by Galluzzo. Power of course is in itself neither good nor bad, and the severance of the moral aspect is crucial to the radicalism in view. Precept and principle MUST precede the concept and use of power for any moral work; and any non-moral work speaks for itself. At that level, it becomes a hideous caricature when aligned in word to morality, a precise denial, and not a mere utility. Morals are not subservient except where they do not fit. The word of God deals with morals: they are not mutable, just as the God who gives them is not mutable; and mutated morals are far from beautiful, if you want to talk of ... ideals, with Obama.

However he may be personally placed, these elements of background are of considerable significance.

As to the whole series of concepts in such teaching, that of getting power in order to change, of getting it by using the self-interest of those whom you wish to support and help you, and rationalising morals of this or that kind that work in such efforts: while it does not necessitate hypocrisy, it is on a road, avenue and freeway, that  it is bound. A freeway ? The conceptual clash is precisely its problem.  As to Alinksky, his use of Lucifer in an illustration as a first case in the desired machinations is instructive. Evil is like a serpent that being roused, bites; and having bitten, kills. Salvation is never interested; and indeed if such noxious 'adjustments' to morals had been avoided from the first, mankind as a race would not be where it is now, at the last!

*4

On Communism, see:

Tender Times for Timely Truth Ch.   8;
The Grating Grandeur ... Ch.   2; SMR  pp. 925ff., 971-972;
  

Beauty for Ashes Ch.    6 (and Hong Kong, and the movement of nations in the last century a concern), with News 98, News 37.

A useful larger selection:

Aviary of Idolatry,  Delusive Drift or Divine Dynamic Ch.    5,

News 37. 44,  69, 97 (the exploiters, the fanciful,
the Communists, the de-godders and the realities),  98,
News 150 - Taiwan,
 

The Grating  Grandeur and Aggrandisement of Man,
and the Meekness of the Majestic Messiah Ch.  2

Beauty for Ashes Ch.    6 (and Hong Kong, and the movement of nations in the last century a concern),
 

Tender Times for Timely Truth Ch.   8;
SMR  pp. 925ff., 971-972;
  

Beauty of Holiness Ch.   3
(war and force, rising downwards, Tiananmen and truth),
Ch.  4 (liberty, Tiananmen, worship and its direction in time, its terms and code of truth); History, Review and Overview   Ch. 1,
Impossible to Men, Open to  God Ch.    5 

See also Lord of Life Ch.   8.

*5

On Romanism, see SMR pp. 1032-1088H, with 911ff.. On Mass, see esp. pp. 1086ff..

*6

^"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,
giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods
which God created to be received with thanksgiving
by those who believe and know the truth. ^|
For every creature of God is good,
and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

^"If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed."

Such therefore is a duty in the realm of seducing spirits, which are various, devious and perilous, concerning whom the Lord's people must be warned, and in all common charity, one needs to seek to alert others to this: where they are going.